Double Pedestal Dining Tables (That I Actually Like!)

Well, y’all had just a few opinions on my dining table! 😀 I haven’t quite gotten through the 520+ comments (I’m over halfway through them, and I will read every single one!), but the consensus seems to be (1) I need to ditch the farmhouse style table, (2) a double pedestal table is the better option, as is an oval table, and (3) the double pedestal table I have is better than the farmhouse table, but isn’t the best option because the pedestals are too ornate/overdone/bulky.

So that leaves me with two options. I can either make new pedestals to go on one of the existing tables, or I can buy a brand new table.

I’m open to either option, and I’m even open to splurging on a really nice table. We all have different definitions of splurging. For me, a splurge on a dining table would be anything that costs over about $1500, and I probably couldn’t bring myself to spend more than about $2500. But if I’m going to splurge on a dining table, I need to really love that dining table. I’m obviously not going to splurge on something I have to settle for.

And therein lies my biggest problem. I’ve looked at hundreds of dining tables online, and I can’t find any that both suit my needs (expandable up to at least 100 inches) and that I find attractive. I’ve come to realize that I don’t like anything overtly traditional, but I also don’t like anything too streamlined and modern. I like a happy medium.

So with that in mind, there are a few that caught my attention. My favorite is probably this one from E Custom Finishes.

double pedestal table from ecustomfinishesvia ECustom Finishes

I don’t particularly like the top, and it doesn’t extend, so that won’t suit me. But I absolutely love those pedestals!! I like that they’re not overly ornate, and they’re not exactly traditional in style. I would call those transitional in style.

This table comes in at a close second place for me.

Obviously, that one is more traditional, but it’s not overly ornate, carved, curvy, etc. I like the simplicity of the pedestals. I like the pedestals on the first table much better, but I do like that the pedestals on the second table don’t take up as much floor space.

This table also caught my eye. To be clear, I don’t like glass-top tables, and it wouldn’t work for me anyway since I need an extending table. But I do really like the pedestals on this table.

I think they’re too big and bulky for my taste, but I like the style quite a bit.

And that’s pretty much it. I kid you not. Out of hundreds and hundreds of double pedestal tables I looked at, on Pinterest, Houzz, various online stores (Pottery Barn and such), and on a general Google search, this pretty much sums up everything that I like.

So you can see why the idea of splurging on a brand new table that I love, while it’s a nice idea, probably isn’t going to happen? So far, I haven’t even seen a table that I completely like 100%. Either I like the bases, and dislike the table top. Or I like the whole table, but it’s the wrong size. Or its the right size for everyday use, but doesn’t extend.

But I’ll keep looking. I haven’t quite given up just yet. In the meantime, I might also try my hand at some DIY pedestal ideas.

 

 

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87 Comments

  1. A table that extends to the length that you want may need a leg or additional pedestal in the center for support.

  2. I like the first one because the pedestals sort of match the sides of your chair…..just build yourself pedestals that match the curve of the chair and they will look like a matching set.

  3. Browsing online is nice to get a general idea of what you might like, but for me, nothing beats visiting brick and mortar stores. On a big purchase like this, I need to see the item in person. I need to touch it and look at it from every angle.

  4. Do not overspend on a dining room table. I live in Jackson, Mississippi area and am absolutely amazed at what dining room furniture is selling for on Facebook garage sale sites. Seems like dining rooms are completely out of style now. Ethan Allen, Broyhill etc , huge China cabinets all for few hundreds, most of time people can’t even sale them for that. Can you take pedestals you have and alter them. I know you said never mind colors but look at General Finishes for top finishes.

  5. I didn’t comment yesterday, so now you will have to read my thoughts today 🙂 I have an oval table with a single pedestal (the table-size cannot be changed)and I love it. It’s versatile, suits a lot more people than a rectangular one (it seats 4 easily, six without a problem, 8 can squeeze in) and the pedestal is great as it doesn’t interfere with the feet of people and chairs.
    My pedestal is very ornate but as it’s only one, that looks great. I feel that the overwhleming effect of your table comes from the afct that it has 2 pedestals. I would recommend you build two pedestals to a style of your liking and try attaching them to your oval table. I really like the look of the pedestals in the last picture above but fear they might look too bulky with an oval table. I’m really curious which solution you come up with as it could be sonething I might want to copy in years to come, when there is need for a bigger table 🙂

  6. I whole heartedly agree with your three conclusions!

    You know, ECustom Finishes might be willing to sell you just the base pedestals and you could use your farmhouse table hardware to make an expanding top…or even just move the existing farmhouse top? Although, I do think oval top is my preference, with legs that square, may be best to do rectangular top.

    So many options! It is going to be fun to see the next installments of “The Dining Room Table Saga”!

  7. I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE the first one. If I had to replace my table, I’d buy this one. The bases are wonderful… I love the clean lines – and given your more ornate chairs, I think the contrast would be really interesting! I can’t wait to see what you do… whatever it is will be wonderful!

  8. Have you looked at Ballard Design? They have several pedestal tables, a few that extend and a trestle table that extends too. They tend towards traditional for sure though.

  9. Just jumping in here as a designer…I think you are headed into “farmhouse” territory again. Your kitchen is Hollywood Regency, your curtains are as well, and you’ve said you are inspired by Jonathan Adler for your dining room. IMHO the fabric on the back of your wing chairs reads as country. I also think your dining room should stick to kelly green/black/white with mixed metals; I don’t think anything coral is working in the dining room (I liked it on the entryway cabinet, however). I think the current dining table you have with the double pedestals would be great with the right print on the wing chairs (trellis, such as the Dwell watercress fabric you liked or Robert Allen lattice bamboo leaf), would tie together the glam look, and you could call it a day.

    1. Also forgot to say that I think a bamboo mirror would look great above the fireplace; I think you have enough large art in the space with the Schumacher mural across from it. You use the tutorial from the blog Gorgeous Shiny Things to make a bamboo frame on a mirror custom cut to fit your opening.

    2. Oh boy – I think the green would really pop and look great with the kitchen (but I am basically a two solid color person).

      That being said – the prints you have are beautiful – so hard to decide.

    3. Thank you Lauren! I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I haven’t commented on all this but I agree, your drapes and the chair fabric IMHO are not working together stylistically therefore making your table options not work. I’m personally not a stickler for doing a room in all one style, but if you’re mixing it up, the styles need to at least play together well. I too struggle with loving so many different styles out there, but 56 years (and numerous mistakes) have given me the wisdom to know when to appreciate a look, but not necessarily feel compelled to incorporate it

  10. You could easily build these pedestals, and the tables. Ana-White.com has good plans, but you probably wouldn’t need them. I believe she also has a link to a place to order already made pedestals. I would think you could make your dream table for less than $500 vs. $1500.

  11. You might look at the Shanty2Chic website for table designs. They are into pedestals also. You may need to build to get just what you want.

  12. Kristi,

    i think you should design and make it yourself. You will be able to get exactly what you want. The first one matches the wall design in that room and it’s my favorite – but with an oval top. I keep wanting to see it in black or at least with black pedestals to match the buffet and the chair legs. I guess I like to match stuff:)

    JoAnne

    1. I second you doing it yourself. One thing you didn’t like about the farm table was the stain the wood was taking. Find a new pine top that you can stain same as the bathroom variety. You seem to love that color and make your bases. No need for you to spend a fortune on a table. You have bigger things to do. I can so see you doing something like numer 1 but better. You have said from the beginning that you wanted ad wood tone table and I don’t believe you would be happy with anything but.

    2. Oh yes, I am sure you can make your own. A quick internet search brings up lots of unfinished table pedestals that you can incorporate and get what you want.

  13. Girlfriend, (if I may!) you have overwhelmed yourself with too many options. Step away. Do something else for a day. Then, go back and review the features you really, really like about the three tables above and determine (with your unlimited talent) how you could order elements (pedestals, etc.) or fabricate them yourself and create the table of your dreams. Of course, I don’t see this being any where near your splurge budget of $1500 however, even if it goes over you have your maximum invest number to guide you. Hope this helps.

  14. I have noticed one glaring omission in this list of options, one over which I have slapped my head—and I should know better. Let me explain:

    My brother has been a professional woodworker for many years and has built all kinds of furniture. Why not design a table with all the features of the one you want? Take components from the tables you’ve seen and liked (pedestal shape and size, size of top, wood, etc.) and draw up a sketch for a furniture maker (I’m sure there must be quite a few in Waco). He/she could incorporate all your ideas, make suggestions, offer alternatives—and you get EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT! And if you’re willing to splurge, you’d be able to afford what a craftsman would charge. And you could ask for it to be unfinished so you can do what you want with it (as well as save you some money!) Let your mind explore the possibilities.

    1. I can tell you that I had a much smaller kitchen table built to my specs out of rift-sawn oak and it was over $2500. I shopped around and prices were consistent among furniture makers.

    2. Yes! I agree. The very talented carpenter/craftsman that the Gaines’ use on their show is in Waco and he could build a beautiful table for you. Draw up some designs and see him. Then you can have just what you want.

      1. Maggie I too thought that same thing since Kristi is also in Waco. The Gaines go to guy is Clint Harp who owns Harp Design CO.

  15. Build your own pedestals – you are so talented designing with molding!! It is all around you already inside and outside (mailbox) your home, so your dining room needs some too!! Could you possibly take the original table purchased with the chairs and redesign those legs – put an outside on the existing pedestals? Does that make sense? That table was balanced and strong enough to support the table with all the extensions.

  16. Just remember that chairs hide most of the pedestals. I’d like to see what the current pedestal table looks like once you put the chairs around it. Have you thought about gel-staining that table so that it would have the stained look that you like? Perhaps you could live with it for awhile and move on to other projects and come back to it after you’ve had time to find “the one” or find that it works just fine.

  17. Ok, so you seem to like square pedestals with a certain amount of trim? And you already have two table tops you could work with? So… you know anyone who can work wonders with trims??? 🙂 😉

  18. All the examples you’ve shown have had farmhouse style tops on them – all rectangular. Just my opinion but with the pretty curves on your chairs, I do think an oval table would go better with the chairs and in the room. It would break up some of the linear lines in the room. I also think the chairs are a little more formal looking than farmhouse.

    Is there any reason why you couldn’t make some pedestals that are somewhat like the first or second ones pictured and attach them to the oval top you already have? They don’t seem like they’d be that difficult for you to make. I love the first ones, however, I think the square bases might throw off the design with an oval top, so I wonder if they could have the upper part like they have but have circular bottoms instead of square? The second ones would work, I think, just as they are. I’m sure there are plenty of tutorials online for making pedestals of all kinds but with your experience, I doubt you’d even need those. You are so creative that I’m sure you can come up with something fantastic!

  19. Have you looked at Restoration Hardware for ideas? They have some very interesting tables which seem similar to what you have described as liking. Also, I think you additionally need to decide whether you do or do not want an apron on your table. The tables which you have presented are all SO different from one another. Are you also imagining the tables with the addition of the chairs that you have chosen or are the chairs not a given?

  20. Anyone contemplating a double pedestal table should try one out for a week or two. Look at picture number three and see how close the front chair edges are to the pedestal. (Ouch!) The pedestal also puts the chair out at an uncomfortable distance for eating. It would be awkward for an adult, let alone a child. Form should follow function. What looks good doesn’t always work.

    1. I was thinking the same thing. Not much room to get under the table when you have a large pedestal in the way. I have a large, round table with a single pedestal. It can seat six without the leaf added.

  21. I’m not surprised you like the pedestals on the last one…you like panels (see all the trim work you did!)…I think it would be too much in your dining room, even if you built it on a smaller scale. It’s just too much panel.

  22. I like the second table too but it may be because the room it’s in kind of looks like your dining room! I could totally see that table in your house.

  23. I keep seeing comments wanting you to decorate to tie in and match other rooms. While I like cohesion and for rooms to flow within the house, I’m not sure I would want my whole house decor, style and colour schemes to be dictated to me by my kitchen choice, regardless of how gorgeous it is. I hope keep the coral, green, teal, yellow and every other accent colours you use, they compliment each other beautifully. Or maybe that’s just me and the little green house is the way to go :/

  24. Go for making your own!! We had pedestals made like the first ones for our kitchen table……he mostly used trim pieces to make a beautiful design. The low cost was fabulous!!

  25. Glad to hear you have determined that a pedestal table would be a better option for you. But I wonder if the 100 inch goal will be at odds with the style of pedestal you like. Technical issue, but an important one.

    Another poster urged you to reconsider buying an expensive table. I second that. That expensive formal dining room is used by a shrinking proportion of the population, unless you live in a McMansion and need to fill an oversized room. By expensive I mean $2500 and up. Think about the number of days a year you will use that table as opposed to other more casual dining options in your home – frequent dinner parties on top of family holiday meals might justify it. If this isn’t your lifestyle, why not budget lower and use that extra $1000 on something you will use daily or will add tremendous style to a room. You have a lot of work ahead of you, after all. Something really awesome could come up. A DIY solution for pedestal construction could bring the cost down to something reasonable, but still be very stylish. Or find another table on craigslist and pull the pedestals off it to reuse on your oval table top. That might be the best of both worlds. I think it’s a combination of lifestyle and relative value of a high ticket item vs. the daily utility of that room vs. the other rooms you envision.

  26. Those first pedestals are gorgeous! Build, or have someone make similar ones for you to replace the pedestals on your oval table.

  27. I feel your pain… I have been looking for months! I had one I hated for years, and I think it’s got me paralyzed with indecision! I think an oval with double pedestals for myself too… but ugh… Not to pile on, and target was the last place I thought to look…(I think I’ve found one at Pottery Barn, just need to stare at it a while more…) But while you’re covering all bases…take a peek at these….if you haven’t already

    http://www.target.com/p/slater-mill-double-pedestal-dining-table-wood-light-brown-jofran-inc/-/A-50751229

    http://www.target.com/p/nailhead-trimmed-double-pedestal-dining-table-wood-dark-oak-furniture-of-america/-/A-50381739?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&CPNG=PLA_Furniture%2BShopping&adgroup=Dining+Table_SC&LID=700000001170770pgs&network=g&device=c&location=9030078&gclid=Cj0KEQjw8pC9BRCqrq37zZil4a0BEiQAZO_zrHhd5B9ZcoZdzOlJsm86jmX60177YlDgpmM4j0LMpR0aAuSf8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

  28. I think because you’ve looked at one hundred or more tables and still not found what you like, I’m wondering if you really know what you want? Why not sit and sketch out different ideas you have from your own visions and keep at it until you know what is right for you. Also keep in mind, what do you want the focus of your dining room to be….the chairs or the table? Don’t let the two compete for each other. Since you’ve already completed the chairs, keep the table rather simple. I always use balance in my decorating to ease the eye. The size of your dining room should dictate your decision for a table and because you say the two of you aren’t social people, you aren’t going to be having a bunch of friends over often. Be realistic and then I believe you won’t be as overwhelmed. Just a thought, Kristi.

  29. After living with a table that’s been in the family for years and that I use to want, I’m now looking for something that will better suit us so your post is timely for me
    I found an oval table by Stanley Furniture called the Charleston Regency Oyster Point Double Pedestal Table- $2500. Yikes but it is beautiful. It can fit 10 with a leaf. Have a look and see if you like it. The pedestals are not chunky though but they are graceful.
    I bet you could make the first one on your list Kristi. You are the furniture Jedi you know and I think you could do it as do most of us here! But, you need to want to do it because if it just causes you more stress and gives you another table to sell then it’s not the best use of your time!

  30. I been following your blog for some time now, I feel that the table and base in pic 1 from ECustom is more you, just maybe all in the same color though. Could you make those dual pedestals and put them on your farmhouse style table? It already has the extension you want. Also, just a FYI…..I chose our current dining table because of the base, which I absolutely love, but nobody seems to see the base, nobody has ever commented on the base, all everyone sees are the dining chairs!!

  31. Love the looks/bases of the tables you’ve shown. But couldn’t you make any of those bases (or create your own design for bases)? Why would you spend the $ when you are so talented at creating?

  32. We just bought a new dining table for our smaller space. It was one of the most frustrating hunts I’ve ever been one. Like you, if I liked one part, then I hated another. My frustration was at the opposite end of the size problem. When you got down to tables under 6 feet, you had trouble finding ones not rife with MDF, cheap veneers, and particle board. One salesmen started to say, “Well, at that price point, what do you expect?” But price wasn’t the issue. It was size. I would have paid more for a table the size I wanted that was constructed of solid materials. But it just wasn’t there. We settled, didn’t spend much, but got solid wood. If I ever find the table I really want, I won’t feel bad about selling this one and changing them out. BTW, I love the first 2 pedestala options. Very clean looking and elegant.

  33. Bulky pedestals make it awkward with knees if you like to scoot in close or have long legs, and its hard, if not impossible, to cross legs. The first table, where the bottoms look like the bottom of those stabilizer canes, that was my favorite. It was interesting, made a statement, yet didn’t overwhelm. They also leave room for stretching out or crossing legs and for pulling up close to the table (I have arms on the short side and find myself sitting closer to the table than most, which pushes my knees against pedestal legs much like someone who has long legs).

    1. I agree with Corbin. While I really like the pedestals in the first photo, the guys in my family wouldn’t be happy. Unless everyone in your family is short, I’d say someone’s knees will be up against them and hopefully not hitting the corners. The worst though will be that the feet of everyone but the shortest are going to be sitting on top those square bases ruining them. The central pedestal of my Queen Anne legs are round and only 5 inches at their widest and I don’t get complaints but the tops of feet, where I put extra lacquer layers to “protect” them, have still needed touch ups. If you’re okay with that, there are some similar looking pedestals at Osborne’s that you could add a bit of extra trim to and a base and use the table top you have.
      https://www.osbornewood.com/1151.aspx

  34. I hear and understand the issues of not finding what I want already made…. Alas! 😉

    However, you could, as many have suggested above create your own pedestals if you like the boxy look of the last photo, or you could use some from here https://www.osbornewood.com/table-pedestals.aspx to add to your existing table, whichever one you choose. Although, some of these might serve better as a jumping off point for building your own given their cost. They aren’t cheap, but most would fit your budget, I think.

    Good luck to you in whatever you decide! I’m sure it will be fabulous!

  35. I do not know what you have done to me, but all of a sudden I CARE about double pedestal dining room tables!!! I find I don’t actually mind it! In any case, I know you said you looked at this place and that place, but I was wondering if you had done a Google search just on “expandable double pedestal dining table” and then just looked at the images only? I did, and saw several right off the bat that would fit what you are looking for. No idea on prices, but inspiration is $0 and that might be just the ticket. I agree with another poster that if you are having a tough decision, step back. But also if you are having a tough decision, perhaps you haven’t the right things to choose from. My 2 cents, worth exactly that. Thank you for the fun decorating posts!!

  36. Your second choice looks like the farm table top with the oval pedestals! There it is, right in front of your eyes! 🙂 Love the second choice.

  37. Well it look like you might be building… Options: modify current double pedestal base, canabalise a new (to you/used) top that can extend to 100″ and build a base to suit your wants, or build a new base and two solid tops. Do note, my dining table is unfinished cabinet plywood with an edge on top of a much smaller table. I’d love to see a table/modification build on here. It was “created” by inlaws the morning before company came for a larger dinner, years before I met my husband.
    Whatever you do, take a break from the table and let it mull while you work on different projects.

  38. Hi Kristi,
    Just delurking to say I really enjoy reading your blog and seeing all you create! Your entryway & its mural is one of my favorites. I really like oak round table too.

    My silly suggestion is an
    Earo Saarinen oval tulip table!

    http://thor.shalecountry.com/tulip-dining-table-ideas/oval-tulip-dining-table/

    Silliness aside, could a single pedestal oval table (you-made, craftsman-made, fabricated or bought) work for your needs?

    The classic tulip is not your taste at all, but benefit of a design like this is that it does not compete with pretty chairs.

    Whatever you do, can’t wait to see it. Good luck!

  39. Check out fallsfurniture.com. They don’t have a lot of tables pictured, but they can get you what you want. Lott is @ 25 miles south of Waco.

  40. I like both 1 and 2, but 1 will have feet and knees bumping into them way too much.

    I say build your own pedastals and use one of your table tops. I prefer the oval, but you need to choose best for you. I’ve complete confidence you can make them and whatever is required to expand the top if you use the oval.

    On a side note ☺ next time you make changes to your blog, would you consider having comment option at beginning of comments? It’s very frustrating, especially on my phone, to scroll through so many comments (and I get sidetracked reading them) to get to the end where I can submit my comment.

    Looking forward to hearing about your final choice!

  41. Tables and chairs need to co-exist …. until your chairs are actually built and sitting in a group, it is difficult to envisage the table needed to bring it all together. Finish the chairs, group them around the tables (putting some lumber under the oval table to raise it to the right height), sit down and actually try them out. What feels good is as important as what looks good. Remember that no one but the cleaner will actually see the underneath of the table without the chairs in place!

    1. That’s a good plan. Sometimes we get an idea in our head that doesn’t quite work out till we see it. I would at least place the chairs around each table in the dining room. You’ll get an idea of placement also.

  42. If you could show me how to make the pedestals in that first photo, I will click on 100 of your ads! LOVE those pedestals!

    1. This lovely Duncan Phyfe style is one I really love,and I think those slim legs are so graceful. I tried to get a set like this, mine’s close but not as classic as this one. But I think Kristi would have mentioned them if she liked the style, so to each their own, right? It’s really been educational to click on the links people have mentioned – so many options! The link to the Osborne pedestals also open up so many possibilities, especially with her talent for enhancement with moldings and trim. It’s fun to see the process!

        1. Thank you, Laura – don’t you just love those shiny brass feet?! Now I’m thinking of painting what I have now white on the bottom! It has a beautiful finish on the top, so beautiful that no one ever sees it, because I put on the felt pads and a tablecloth. OK, I’m finished now, too!

  43. Wouldn’t there be a fine furniture carpenter somewhere in your vicinity who could build you the table of your dreams? You could even ask them to not do any staining or finishing on the table and do all of that yourself exactly to your liking.

  44. Have you checked out these amazing extending tables seat from 8 up to 24!! I believe you can mix and match the various base and table top options. I just picked this one as it has similar legs to what you showed.
    http://www.amishtables.com/collections/tables/products/bradbury-double-pedestal-extension-table

    You are so skilled you could possibly even ask just for the extending table top and mechanism (unfinished) and do your own pedestals if none of theirs were perfect!

  45. I like the simpler legs on option 2. Just for the simple fact they allow more room for a wheelchair. As a nurse who works in long term care I see the struggles of getting up to the table in a wheelchair. Just my opinion. 😊

  46. Perhaps you could finish up all your chairs, put them in the configuration in your dining room that you want them to be in, photograph it, and then work from the photograph and sketch in the shape of the dining table that needs to be there? It’s awfully difficult to do what you are doing now, which is to make a big decision about something without all the elements in place which will aspect it. You did such a beautiful job of designing your kitchen cabinet walls because you could see what needed to be there, proportionally. This is so much harder. But whichever way you approach it, I know it will be beautiful.

  47. Kristi,

    Just came across this table in all of my on-line shopping this evening. It does extend the 100″ you were wanting. There is a 2 leaf option that is well over 100″.

    It is the Capistrano Extension Dining Table at Ballard Designs.

    Best Wishes!

  48. I think the first table would look great in your dining room. You could totally DIY those legs yourself and save a ton of money.

  49. I have to agree. The dearth of really great dining tables is bad. Realistically it is the chairs, and the room that make the table look good. I like the idea of a pedestal table, as it will be easy for Matt in his chair. I also like a glass top table since it really opens the room. My only problem is I never find one that I really like. I just found a beautiful French antique on OKL. They just got a container from France, and this is a farm table, but it is slightly more than nine feet. That’s what I have been looking for. Now I have to get my husband to agree to let me spend just north of two grand after tax. Delivery is free.
    I still don’t understand why you are so concerned about opening your table. You can only go so far in your room, unless you plan to move it to the sunroom for holidays etc. if I WERE YOU, I would find a table that seats eight, with no leg interference and not worry about opening it. You can always bring in a folding table for holidays. Good Luck

  50. I like option 2 pedestals on rectangular table.

    Could y’all code in a comment bottom button that I can click to get to the end of the ten zillion comments, to post my own? I’m surfing in bed whilst hubby snoozes and I’m surprised all the finger scrolling on my iPhone didn’t wake him up.

    Thankful insomniac,

    Chelle

  51. Saw this table and thought of you. Its pedestals speak to your music room without being to stylized, ornate, formal or fussy, the finish is neutral but with personality, very harmonizing to rest of your decor…etc….

    Magnussen Bellamy 4pc Rectangular Dining Table Set in Deep Weathered Pine Finish (also bench available)

    Google it… Id attach a pic but i couldn’t figure out how!