A Tale Of Two Contractors (How Not To Do Business vs. How To Do Business Correctly)
Last week, I told y’all about a chance meeting I had in the Home Depot parking lot with a man who was the project manager on our garage-to-studio conversion several years ago. It just so happens that he is now working for one of the contractors I called about the addition we’re wanting to build on the back of our house. Knowing that he would once again be the project manager on our addition if I went with that company made me feel like it was meant to be!
But right after I hit “publish” on that post (which you can read here if you missed it), I got a call from a different contractor (I had called and left messages with three different contractors) who set up a meeting with me for last Friday. I figured it wouldn’t hurt to meet with both of them. The more info, the better, right? And it’s always better to get estimates from two or three before making a decision.
Well, I wish I hadn’t scheduled that first meeting at all. I was going into this meeting totally blind. Of course, I’ve worked with contractors before, but I’ve never had to work with the City of Waco to pull permits to tear down part of an existing building and then to build a 1000-square-foot addition onto a house before. I’ve never had to hire an engineer or an architect or a draftsperson or a designer before so that they can do all of the official drawings required by the city in order to add on 1000 square feet to a house before. All of this is brand new to me.
If you’re new around here, let me show you the addition we’re planning. This is what our house floor plan looks like right now…
And the plan is to tear down the huge “sunroom”, as well as the little room to the left of it (which was the original very tiny “master bathroom”), and add on these rooms…
While I’ve got plenty of DIY experience and I’ve worked with contractors to modify the existing rooms of the house, adding on 1000 square feet of living space to an existing house is a completely different animal. Most homeowners (including myself) wouldn’t know the first thing to do, which is why we hire contractors to take care of the entire process, right?
The contractor is the one who explains to the engineer what kind of foundation they need built, and the engineer designs it to the right specifications. The contractor is the one who works with the permit office to make sure all of the proper plans are on file, and he’s the one who pulls the permits and works with the inspectors to make sure everything is just right. The contractor is the one who knows and understands the step-by-step process to get from concept to completion.
That’s the experience and expertise that you’re paying for when you hire a contractor (or any other professional), and you expect them to do their job without heaping loads and loads of extraneous stress and problems onto your shoulders before and during the project. (Yes, additions are inherently stressful for homeowners, but I think you understand what I mean.)
Well, that is not at all the vibe I got from the first contractor I met with. As we were talking through the details of the addition, he kept telling me about just how stressful and virtually impossible it is to get anything done with the city of Waco, and how awful the permit office is because of all of the hoops they make you go through, and how horrible the building inspectors can be to work with. He was telling about how this addition will have them basically scrutinizing other areas of the house, which may end up with other parts of the house having to be redone if they don’t pass the energy efficiency test or this other test or that other test. (Which freaked me out because, while we’ve done our best with new insulation and windows, this is still a 75-year-old house).
I felt as though he was literally trying to talk me out of doing the addition (even though he literally said, “I mean, I’m not trying to talk you out of it, but…”) because the whole process was going to be virtually impossible to get approved, and working with the city was way more difficult than I could ever imagine, and they would make my life a nightmare for the duration of the building process.
I felt so discouraged and defeated that when he finally walked out the front door that I closed the door behind him and just cried. I seriously thought that we had made a huge mistake buying this house with the idea of adding on. In that instant, I regretted all of the time, effort, and money I had put into this house making it ours. Through tears, I texted my mom.
After a good cry, I wiped away my tears and felt determined not to let that meeting keep me down, so I called the other contractor who our previous project manager now works for and set up a meeting with him for yesterday morning.
I was dreading that meeting. I was expecting the same bad news from him, and preparing myself for a lifetime of using a small guest bedroom as our main bedroom, and having a huge master bathroom just randomly sitting by itself in the floor plan, and never having a dining room again because Matt requires a place for his recliner, and having to explain to every guest that tours our house in the future how we bought the house with plans to add on, but the city made it impossible, so here we are with a crazy floor plan that makes no sense.
Thankfully, I had the very opposite experience. Y’all, this one was amazing! He was so nice, and so knowledgeable, and so encouraging. After about ten minutes, I was still waiting for the other shoe to drop, so I just asked him, “Does this project seem doable? I mean, do you do a lot of work inside the city of Waco? Do you have a lot of experience working with the people in the building permit and building inspection offices?” He laughed and said, “Oh, yeah! If I didn’t work inside the city of Waco, I’d lose about 95% of my business!”
He went on to tell me that, yes, some of the inspectors can be challenging at times, but knows them, he gets along with them, and they have great working relationships with each other. And he’s never had a problem getting a project past the inspection process, even if it does require a few modifications to make a picky inspector happy with some little details. He said he works with a great engineer and architect and draftsperson who all submit plans to the city regularly.
He explained that the whole building process, from concept to completion, will be a long process because the building inspections employees are always shorthanded and overworked, but there was nothing unusual at all about the addition we’re wanting to build, and he didn’t anticipate any problems with it. His whole attitude was basically we may run into a problem or a few bumps in the road along the way, but there are always ways around those, and the project will get finished. And handling those bumps in the road is one of the reasons you hire me.
He was so thorough in explaining the whole process to me — everything from having plans drawn up, to planning and budgeting and change orders, and just about everything I could have asked. By the time he left, I felt so excited and encouraged and ready to sign on the dotted line to get this project started.
As I’ve compared and contrasted those two meetings, I’ve been utterly amazed at the stark differences. One left me in tears. The other left me excited and anxious to hand over my money and get started. And it all boiled down to the differences in attitude and presentation between the two. There are some very significant business lessons in there somewhere. How not to do business vs. how to do business correctly. How to present info to a potential customer vs. how not to present info to a potential customer. How to generate positive word-of-mouth advertising vs. how to destroy your word-of-mouth reputation. How to ruin your business vs. how to make your business thrive.
Anyway, maybe it was good that I met with the first one after all. Having the awfulness of that first meeting fresh in my memory made me appreciate the second meeting all the more. And yes, I’ve definitely found my contractor for the addition. I’m very excited to work with this building company, and also very happy that my old, familiar project manager from several years ago will be overseeing the biggest project we’ll ever do on this house.
Addicted 2 Decorating is where I share my DIY and decorating journey as I remodel and decorate the 1948 fixer upper that my husband, Matt, and I bought in 2013. Matt has M.S. and is unable to do physical work, so I do the majority of the work on the house by myself. You can learn more about me here.
Ugh, I’m so sorry that was such a stressful experience, although I’m glad the awfulness of the Friday meeting made you appreciate the second one even more! I’m sure both contractors are telling the truth about their experiences with permitting and inspections. With the attitude of the first guy, no wonder he has difficulty working with them. Overworked and/or understaffed city inspectors aren’t going to go out of their way to cooperate with a difficult contractor who is negative, adversarial or constantly complaining!
Wow. All of it so providential. It was necessary for you to experience the dread so that you could experience the joy. That’s the way life works most of the time 😊
I just knew it was kismet when you ran into your previous project manager at Home Depot! And yes, I do think having the awful experience with the first contractor was also meant to be so you are totally confident you have selected the right company to do your renovation.
Wow, what a fascinating interview comparison, Kristi! Sorry you had to experience the acute stress of the first one, but I think you’re right about it making the second one that much more satisfying and comforting, in the end. When you described that fortuitous meeting in the parking lot with your old project manager, I thought to myself, “Yes! It’s fated that that’s the company you should go with for the addition.” So, yay for “chance” meetings. I’m very excited for you!
Dealing with a wonderful contractor as we speak with my new house, I suspect that the first contractor you talked to, may be a shoddy one. The agencies involved are not out to screw the residents of their city/county. But . . . they do know who does good work and who doesn’t. Meaning that they are going to ride herd on the ones that they find frequent violations from. The inspectors are overworked and underpaid not to mention scarce as hen’s teeth in some places. They will not aggravate a contractor that they never have issues with. They know he/she is good and will do things right. The others will have everything inspected closely. There are only so many hours in the day. Gotta prioritize in order to get their work done.
Considering that you have a prior relationship with the 2nd contractor and you were very happy with their work, I suspect you will have a fairly easy time of things.
Also, I’ve doubt that the inspectors are going to be eyeballing the rest of your house unless there is a safety issue like wiring.
In some cases, like the one I had in 2012, when new HVAC was installed, the inspector didn’t even come out. He called my husband and asked him if he was satisfied with the work that was done. And we were. Still are! Because the installer was well known and did great work.
When I build, I check with suppliers about the contractor as well. They will give you the straight goods. Does this guy pay his subs promptly? Is he on time with his work. I go in and say this guy is doing my house and they say “oh good” or “oh oh”. I’m not sure about Waco, but in some places we have built, we talked to the city about what they need just to be ready. In many places, the original parts of the building are grandfathered as long as you don’t touch them. If you do, then all bets are off so watch for that as well. In Vancouver, there is a cost limit. I think if you spend more that 80K on a renovation, you have to install sprinklers throughout the house.
Watch their work, don’t let them think you don’t know because you DO. You have vast knowledge, don’t let them just pat you on the head. Take notes and pictures. I’m not saying this guy is a salesman, but you have to still be vigilant.
We are currently in the midst of adding an ensuite and closet to our primary bedroom and had very similar experiences with different contractors. Some were very negative and talked through all the terrible things that were likely to happen with the work, permit process and costs, vs the contractor we have chosen who was so positive about it all and much better priced. I honestly fell that those that come in and have nothing good to say generally also over-estimate costs drastically, and I have decided they just arent interested in the project from the get-go. Id rather they just didnt bother coming by and wasting my time to be honest! Glad you were able to get your original contractor back in to move forward with your extension.
Just looking at your proposed addition, I’m wondering if you’ve ever considered enlarging the kitchen into the music room space? Would make your kitchen so spacious (and great when you entertained) and also provide the connection from your living room, through the kitchen and into the new family room without compromising privacy. Just a thought. 🙂 (Unless there is no way you would give up the music room.)
I can pretty much guarantee you that in the ten years I’ve been playing around with this floor plan, literally every single option you could think of has been considered…including that one. 😃
We have added on to our homes five times over the years, so have lots of experience. Your comment “The contractor is the one who explains to the engineer what kind of foundation they need built, and the engineer designs it to the right specifications.” is not correct. The architect and structural engineer are the ones that tell the contractor what needs to be built. I have heard a lot of people don’t like the remodeling process but we love it, hopefully you will to. If you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask me.
I think my point was that the contractor can suggest (largely based on the customer’s input) whether to go with a pier and beam foundation for the addition to extend the current pier and beam foundation, or whether to go with concrete on grade. Once that decision has been made by the contractor (with my input, but he highly suggested concrete on grade and explained why to my satisfaction), the engineer takes it from there.
The architect or engineer will (or should) be fully educated on the all the options for your addition, including new products and approaches. He/she will also know all the pros and cons and general costs of each. (For example: https://www.greenbuilt.org/214-engineered-wall-systems-are-an-option-for-your-home/ ) The contractor brings experience and information about constructability on prior projects, lead times, material availability, specific costs and potentially, some value engineering. You want to sign separate contracts with both designer and contractor unless you hire a design/build firm that has contractors and licensed architects or engineers on staff. You want to be the final say with design AND the final say with construction. You also want to portion costs between design and construction instead of allowing the contractor to do so on your behalf. Note: a building addition will require stamped drawings from either an engineer or architect. And yes, those relationships and experience with code enforcement do matter. — Your friendly neighborhood Civil Engineer (Licensed Professional Engineer)
Wow! What an experience. But what a good learning experience you gained from having two building contractors come out, especially when the first one was such a big let down for you. Glad you have decided to go with the more positive contractor. You already know he is ‘on top’ of things and will give you honest answers to the questions you will have during the building process.
I’ve learned a lesson from reading this particular post of yours.
Some contractors don’t want the job once they see it and will find a way to convince you not to hire them. Sounds to me that the 1st contractor might have been in that category. Or maybe he’s not very good, which is why he has so many problems with the city inspectors, who are generally pretty easy to work with. Either way, sounds like you are fortunate to have found the second company.
I agree that the first contractor didn’t want the job . Why they can’t just be honest and say that they aren’t interested in the job I don’t know but they will give you every excuse in the world why it might not be a good idea and then if you ask for an estimate they will be the very highest one you get because they absolutely don’t want the job.
I hope you sign on the dotted line soon as the whole process will take time to implement. They need you on their list sooner than later.
Wow! What a difference in explanations.
PLEASE get 3 quotes/opinions minimum. Some people are just glass half empty, and others are better at saying what you want to hear. They both told you that they expect problems and hiccups but 1 just told you in a more palatable way, and saying He’s sure that they can handle it all doesn’t really mean anything when the city stops work on your project.
Agree. Our builder said about the same thing, but what he DIDN’T say was that he would charge us for every issue, delay the build, instead of working through while he waited for extra materials. After telling us our house would take 3-4 months, it ended up taking over six months, even though we had no bad weather besides two days. He started out very agreeable, knew we were well versed in the process, as we had been through two other homes built in our lifetimes, and knew we would be showing up often to check on progress. He was all but absent the last two months, and was almost unreachable by phone. Our house was great when we moved in, but the relationship was over, and we would not refer him to anyone as a positive choice.
Yay!!! I once had a contractor suggest to me that I not overprice my house for the neighborhood. I live at the end of a cul de sac and was only doing simple upgrades and a modest add on. Mine is the oldest on the street and has not had many improvements since it was built in the 70’s. Needless to say…he didn’t get the job either and I’m happy!
Maybe the difference in the opinions of the contractor comes from their experiences they’ve had. Your doing some great due diligence beforehand.
It sounds like you got a guy who’ll work well. I’d meet with his people (architect, engineer) if possible, before handing over $$$. Or ask if for a reference of someone of a similar expansion that needed the plans and permitting who’d DID have a snag.
It is gratifying to read that you have found such a good contractor.
A contractor that complains about how impossible it is to work with the city planning department and the building inspectors is one who does not do good work.
When we build a guest cottage, the contractor had decades of experience building in our city. I happened to be present with the contractor when an inspector came by for one of the inspections. After the contractor lead the inspector through and showed him the items that were on the checklist, the inspector told the contractor that everything was just as it should be, that he remembered him from other jobs, and that his jobs were always ready when the appointment was set, and that they always passed. He gave our contractor his personal cell number and said to call him directly for further inspections, because (during the pandemic), the city phone appointment system was days behind.
You want a contractor like that.
Be sure to ask for several references for recent clients and do go see their work. You have an eagle eye for detail, and you will be able to tell if their work is as good as their presentation.
So glad for you Kristi.
My husband and I are both retired civil engineers and retired employees of a state regulatory agencies, though neither of us “did” construction projects (he regulated the operation of wastewater treatment projects and I regulated water supply and wastewater treatment projects). I had construction management classes in college, but his degree is in environemental engineering, so he did not. Beginning in 2017, we started on a complete gut and remodel of his childhood home, built in 1937. Our remodel involved moving interior walls, including bearing walls, and new plumbing and electrical systems. Here’s my perspective as both a user of our city’s building department and as a regulator of other projects. The difficulty a particular “client” has with regulators is mostly dependent on the quality of work and responsiveness of the applicant’s agent.
My husband hand drew the plans for our project. The building department folks got a kick out the fact that they were hand drawn, but they approved them with no problems (because we did our homework and met all the state and local design requirements). We both researched different requirements since residential design was not part of our normal scope of work.
We did one change order, which involved expanding both our front and back porches (had to do with wanting to park our 16′ travel trailer on a pad on our property and set back requirements for that, which we were not aware of when we started). We did most of the contruction work ourselves, except for moving a gas line for our new indoor and outdoor fireplaces, texturing the walls (we put up the dry wall and taped them), and redoing the original hardwood floors (which required patching holes where we removed both bearing and non-bearing walls and the original floor furnace vent). With one exception, which required a minor modification, we passed all inspections the first time. We never told the building department that we were civil engineers–just homeowners.
If that first contractor has issues with the Waco building department, my guess is that it is because he doesn’t follow the rules. As a regulator, I can’t tell you how many times someone would complain to the State Board that I worked for about my staff (I managed about 150 people) not approving their permit applications. When I looked into their cases, with only one or two exceptions, the reason that their permits had not been approved was that staff had requested information from them after review of deficient permit applications and the consultants had not responded to the requests, sometimes after numerous repeat requests. Just think about how many contractors don’t return phone calls when you are trying to hire someone for a job. It’s because for whatever reason they are just not responsive.
Anyway, your gut instinct is correct. If the first guy has issues with the building department, DO NOT HIRE HIM. Also, a heads up. You like to make changes mid project. When projects go over budget, it is almost always because of change orders. Think through very carefully what you want and make any changes on paper before the plans get finalized and approved. The more you minimize change orders, the less it will cost you in the long run. I’m sure you will do this anyway, but check and building plan proposals very carefully. The contractor should be able to point out statutes, state regulations, and local ordinances for anything that is required, so don’t feel shy about questioning anything that doesn’t seem right. Good luck!
PS: We had the house we’ve lived in since 1985 built new as a custom home by a contractor who usually builds “spec” homes. So we’ve been through major projects done completely by contractors and major DIY projects using subs minimally. We had less trouble doing it ourselves than using the contractor, who did quality work and mostly stayed on budget, but finished the house 4 months after the contracted completion date. And he always needed a “homeowner decision” at the very last minute. I picked out my kitchen cabinets for the 1985 house from samples he had in the back of his truck while standing on the corner outside my place of work. He created unnecessary stress.
One of the advantages of having blogged your past work is that even if an inspector is curious about past work, you have photo documentation of “what is behind the walls and under the floor” before, during, and after your work. First contractor sounded lazy, and that maybe he would want to work without permits, and was just setting you up for that.
Sounds to me like he was suggesting they do the project without permits. Leading you in that direction… We once had a shady contractor put a fake permit holder in our front yard, to keep nosy people away. It wasn’t til things went south, that I actually opened it and found that it was empty. The work they did was pretty good and we haven’t had any problems, 10 years later, so I guess he was just lazy.
God is watching out for you! He’s always on your side! Good luck with all of it! 🍀
Kristi, I also live in Waco. Would it be possible to get the name of the contractor you chose?
It sounds to me as if the first guy was in over his head and wanted to lay the foundation that when he screws up the project he can default to “well I told you the city would give you fits and want to change everything, blah, blah…”
He was giving himself an out and laying all the problems at your feet.
The second contractor is your obvious choice because of his work history. Simply put, he knows what he’s doing and has established a relationship with the other players in the game. I’d button up his time now because he’s the one you want and I’m sure he’s in demand. If you need to dots home equity loan or whatever it takes to secure a contract with him I’d say go for it!
Kristi, the guy you respected as a project manager, probably would never work with that first guy to start with. He works for someone like him, that knows what he is doing, does the best to keep all the inspections ready to pass, and has little issues getting the project done without huge problems. I am so happy for you, that you ran into him, and found a good contractor. We are in the permitting process for a smaller house on our vacant lot next door. We can see this is not going to be an easy project, and will probably take a lot longer than what we thought. I hope yours goes smoothly, and you are very happy with the work done…I think you will be. By the way…someone already told you, but I will second that…the WORST thing you can do is change your mind, and do changes anytime after the fact. Be SURE you have it exactly as you want, and don’t make changes once you sign contracts. It will be costly and time estimates will go out the window. I am so excited for you…looking forward to watching your current projects, and hearing about the plans for the addition.
Bless you I`m so glad the second one turned out and you already know how he works so you wont have that worry about thinking will he do it right , I think we can all breath a sigh of relief that you finally have your addition on it`s way to being built and it`s going to be fabulous going through that process with you, to see the amazing finish,,
Yeah! Onward! Isn’t it amazing how God sets up circomstances to guide in the right way! Now you are sure of what can and will be done! I can’t wait to see what a blessing this new space will be for you two! You go girl!
Now I’m excited for you!!