I Tried To Hire This Out. Once Again, It Didn’t Work.
Y’all, I seem to have the worst success in trying to hire out work on our house. I keep trying, but thinks just never seem to quite work out for me. 😀
Tuesday morning, I got up knowing that I had a huge task ahead of me — installing the hardwood flooring in our master bedroom suite. There are two rooms and a foyer that only have plywood subfloor at this point, so they need hardwood flooring. I’ve installed plenty of hardwood flooring in the past, so I know I can do it. I’m capable. I have the tools. But what I lacked was the drive and motivation to get it done. It’s just a whole lot of flooring, and the task seemed pretty daunting to me.
I was also feeling very unsure about the process for a reason I’ll explain later in this post. And because I was having big doubts about the process, I was feeling so unmotivated to jump in and get the project done. Those doubts have been nagging at me for weeks now, and no matter how much I tried, I couldn’t find the answer to my question about the installation process. But more on that in a minute.
So I decided that this would be the perfect project to hire out. After looking online at local companies and their Google ratings and reviews, I chose a company. Waco isn’t that big, so when it comes to companies that will just install flooring (rather than trying to sell me flooring and having their people install the flooring that I buy from them), I really only found one company that would do it. Thankfully, that company has fantastic reviews. So I called, and the man came out that day (Tuesday) to measure for an estimate. He said he would get back to me that afternoon with the estimate. Unfortunately, I still haven’t heard back from them.
I’m really okay with it, though. The main part that I wanted to hire out is the sanding. Installing the flooring is the easy part. The part I dread the most is the sanding. But I was told that they only do the installation, and I’d have to find someone else to do the sanding and the finishing (or do it myself) because they don’t do that. I was so disappointed to learn that. To me, it doesn’t really seem worth it to hire out a job when they’ll only do the easy part, but I’m still stuck doing the hardest part.
So in the end, I’m really not even upset about the fact that they didn’t get back to me with an estimate. If they can’t do the part I dread the most, and I’d still be stuck doing that part, I might as well do all of it myself. So today is the day. Today is officially flooring day.
There is a lot of flooring to be installed, and it’s so easy to get overwhelmed at having to do all of this myself from start to finish.
But I’m just going to take it one step at a time. As the saying goes, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. This is my elephant. 😀
I have no idea how long this will take, but I’m going to do my best not to drag this out. I’m ready to get to the fun stuff. But again, I have two rooms and a foyer that need flooring.
But the flooring is going to completely change the look of this whole area. That motivates me!
The good thing about having him come out is that I was able to ask that question that has been nagging at me and keeping me from jumping into this flooring project before now. And that question was about underlayment/moisture barrier.
The original hardwood flooring in our house has/had felt paper between the hardwood flooring and the subfloor to act as a barrier. That’s basically the stuff that’s used under shingles on a roof. So a few weeks ago when I started installing the flooring, I started laying down the felt paper. You may recall seeing that in pictures of the foyer from a few weeks ago.
But then I took that felt paper up and wondered if I needed to bypass that step because I remembered that in all of this area that has new subfloor, the contractor added Tyvek under the floor joists, and then added insulation between the floor joists, before installing then new subfloor. They did that on our bathroom floor two years ago when I hired that original contractor to do the work, and he explained that the city now requires that on any remodels dealing with the subfloor. So when we had the subfloor replaced in these areas, they did that in these areas as well.
So my biggest concern was that by adding a layer of felt paper between the subfloor and hardwood flooring, I may be creating that dreaded “moisture barrier sandwich” that can cause big problems. Are y’all aware of the “moisture barrier sandwich” issue?
I learned about this many years ago, back in 2014, when I was remodeling our hallway bathroom. I was ready to do the bathtub surround, and I was researching the best way to waterproof a shower/bathtub surround. I learned that there are two main ways to do it.
The first way is to attach thick plastic sheeting to the wall studs and make sure the plastic sheeting completely seals the area. And then on top of the sheeting, install the concrete board, sealing the seams and the screw holes. And then tile directly on top of the concrete board.
The second main way to do it is to install the concrete board directly to the wall studs and seal the seams and screw holes. And then use a paint-on waterproofing barrier like RedGard or SEMCO Liquid Membrane (my favorite waterproofing membrane) on top of the concrete board. Once that’s dry, you then tile on top of the waterproofing membrane.
When doing the hallway bathroom bathtub surround, I chose the RedGard liquid waterproofing membrane option.
But the key is that you can only choose one option. You can’t do both. Waterproofing isn’t one of those situations where one option must be good, so using both options must be better. Because if you do both — use the plastic sheeting on the studs PLUS add a waterproofing membrane to the concrete board — you’ve created that dreaded “moisture barrier sandwich”, which means that if you happen to have a failure somewhere in that waterproofing membrane, and water happens to get behind the concrete board, it’s stuck there and has no way to evaporate because it’s stuck between the waterproofing membrane and the plastic. And then what you’ve created is the perfect breeding ground for mold. So when it comes to shower surrounds, you only ever waterproof behind the concrete board or on top of the concrete board, but never both.
So this one issue has been nagging me for weeks now. If I have Tyvek under my floor joists, plus felt paper on top of the subfloor, is that creating a moisture barrier sandwich? I’ve googled every search term I could think of to answer my question of whether or not I should use felt paper above the subfloor in this situation, but no matter what I searched, I couldn’t find the answer. And I was so afraid to move forward without knowing with full confidence if I was about to make a huge mistake by using the felt paper.
So when this man — the owner of this decades-old flooring installation company — was here, I explained the situation very clearly, and he repeated it back to me more than once, so I know he understood exactly what I was describing. And since his business is here in Waco where the city now requires the Tyvek under the floor joists, I’m confident that he has seen this many times. So I asked him how they would handle that. Would they install the hardwood flooring directly on the subfloor? Or would they install an underlayment of some sort between the subfloor and hardwood flooring?
He said, “Oh, we would use an underlayment. We would use something like…”, and then he stopped, looked around the room, saw my roll of felt paper leaning against the wall, and pointed to it and said, “…that! We would put that down first.”
So I’ve heard it directly from the local professional who’s been in the business for decades. I breathed such a sigh of relief just having that information confirmed by him. It was so worth putting off starting on the flooring for two days just to have that information from him and the peace of mind it brings knowing that I can move forward with full confidence that I’ll be installing the flooring exactly like a local professional with decades of experience in this area would have done it.
And now with that confidence and that peace of mind, I can get busy on the flooring. I’d still love for someone else to do the sanding for me, but if I can’t find anyone, I’m fine with doing it myself. I dread it, and it’s one of my least favorite things to do, but at least I have experience. 😀 It won’t be my first time, and it probably won’t be my last, either.
Addicted 2 Decorating is where I share my DIY and decorating journey as I remodel and decorate the 1948 fixer upper that my husband, Matt, and I bought in 2013. Matt has M.S. and is unable to do physical work, so I do the majority of the work on the house by myself. You can learn more about me here.
John Wayne said courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway.
And this (sanding)? Not nearly that bad! You’re a hero by any definition ♡
So happy you now know what you need to, and can have confidence in the finish. That will be motivating for sure! Maybe there is someone you can get to do the sanding, but I know you would be more satisfied if you did it yourself…no one is as competent, and caring about the finished product than you…you can do it…one step at a time…I never heard that expression about the elephant…got a giggle out of that. 😊 Onward girl!
You could also ask your building department what code is.
I’ve tried calling them on the phone to get answers in the past. They’re not very nice about it, and I’ve never gotten info on the phone. I try to avoid them when possible.
Try the next county over.
You always figure out for you and your home the best way to complete a project, you got this too! Best
Amazing! Eat that elephant!!!
I’m not confident that you have the correct final answer. See Building Science Fight Club on YouTube and Instagram (woman-led) or maybe This Old House (still online) or Fine Homebuilding.
What I do know: you’re creating a situation similar to the carpet tiles over wood floor except you’ve added the Tyvek below. Less moisture will get into the subfloor compared to what you had — but if it does get there, it has no way out with the tar paper and tyvek installed. Your concern makes perfect sense.
I don’t think you’d see a catastrophic issue quickly either way, but leaving the tar paper out could be the better choice. I suggest more research.
(From a civil engineer)
I wonder….you’d think he would have known the name tarpaper or felt paper automatically.
Tables and dressers are only finished on one side of the wood to allow breathing. Would the double barrier under the floor hinder that?
This was my thought. I’m not as convinced the flooring guy is the professional you think he is. I’ll gladly eat my words if I’m wrong. Whenever you pose a question like this,I always wonder “what would Tommy do?”
(TOH). I’d get a few more opinions.
Definitely seems like a tedious-boring-exhausting job, but one that will offer you so much satisfaction to have behind you. And I know if you are doing this yourself, it will be perfect and precise 😊
We live in a small town rural area, and my husband always has to follow up two or three times to get an estimate from people! And yes they do eventually come through with one and show up to do the work, but it takes phone calls.
So, I wouldn’t just leave that ball in their court if you really want to hire out a job in the future 🙂
Oh, dear! I understand your anxiety over what to use or not use under your wood floors. When I’m dreading doing a project I keep telling myself that it’s not going to be as terrible as it seems and have a reward in place for myself when the project is done. Your reward could be one of the more fun projects you have for the bedroom like building the headboard or nightstands.
Don’t know if you came across this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/buildingscience/comments/1afm7ju/can_tyvek_on_outside_and_felt_paper_on_inside/
Hope it helps confirm both are okay together.
I wonder….you’d think he would have known the name tarpaper or felt paper automatically.
Tables and dressers are only finished on one side of the wood to allow breathing. Would the double barrier under the floor hinder that?
I’m sure he knew, but he didn’t think that I would know. So he was looking around for an example of something. I get that alot from men before they understand what I do and how much I know. They assume I’m a helpless woman who doesn’t know anything.
I get that response a lot too! I call it “getting the Little Lady Treatment” Haha. Glad you are ready to move on with the floor install.
I work in construction, tell them repeatedly that my day job is scoping renovations and managing sub-contractors, and I still get the “little lady” syndrome. I fully admit sometimes to getting my husband to tell the contractors the same thing I just said so they listen to the words instead of just assuming they can ignore them since a woman uttered them. It’s better than when I started 20+ years ago, but still a problem.
I decided to do a little research, because of course, I’m contemplating the same issue since you shared your Flor fiasco 🫣. I added the links of the 3 sites I read. Hope they work.
Side note, I notice I have a lot of typos. You used to have a edit button, but I dont see it anymore. I’m having to learn my new phone and it has some weird auto correct that changes whole phrases some times 🤔🤨…so, I hope i caught most of this before posting.😀
Basically, I think you are ok with what you are doing 1) apparently, flooring/sub/joist/insulation, etc.. should be considered one unit and not separate entities. 2) usually flooring require some sort of vapor/moisture barrier type layer for warranty (would they require this if it creates more problems they would have to pay to fix?). 3) Since, the whole floor is considered one unit, what would be considered instead is the condition of your crawl space environment/moisture/ventilation/temp fluctuations, etc… This made a lot of sense to me 🤗.
The stack exchange link is a question posed to a forum. Huberwood link which i read first is specific to moisture sandwich issues science (easy read) with raised floors. The last one was just to get some confirmation 😁.
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/140039/if-i-have-vapor-barrier-under-joists-in-crawlspace-is-hardwood-underlayment-a-p
https://www.huberwood.com/blog/avoiding-the-moisture-sandwich
https://www.firstatlantaflooring.com/news/moisture-barrier-for-flooring-types-and-installation/
A side note about your dryer vent … I came across this thing called Dryerbox, have you heard of it? It’s an insert for your dryer vent like one of those pre-made bathroom niches. It allows for the dry to be placed against the wall w/o kicking the hose.
https://dryerbox.com/
You’ve got this. You can also use rosin paper if needed, it is also breathable and helps with the squeaks in the floor during those dry months. It’s what we used when we installed our solid hickory floors almost 14 years ago. No troubles and no squeaks. Roll on with the felt, take small steps, and before you know it, viola, you’ll be done, winter will be behind you and on to the fun stuff.
Cheers to both you and Matt!
Try searching for floor refinishing contractors instead of flooring installation contractors if you want to simply hire out the sanding part of the process. The refinishers specialize in the dirty part of the process and that’s what you need done, since it’s difficult to rent all the equipment that helps with dust mitigation.
You know who you need in your corner? One or two good home inspection contractors you can call upon for advice. The trouble you’ve been having is that contractors make their money on installation (labor) and materials (sales); they’re not set up to monetize their knowledge and expertise, so when you ask questions about process, you go to the back of the line because you don’t need what they charge for. But good home inspectors specialize in monetizing their general contracting expertise, which is what you need! If I were you, I’d call around and see if I could find someone who could serve as a resource, and work out a way for them to charge you fairly for their advice.
Came her to say the same thing.
Architect here:
Tyvek is not like a plastic or felt waterproof barrier. Tyvek “breathes.” So, it will shed liquid water, but will allow water vapor to transpire through it. That’s why it’s used on the outside of the house, between sheathing and siding. The hard vapor barrier (plastic sheeting) is inside the house, between studs and drywall, creating a non-permeable vapor barrier.
The Tyvek on the outside sheathing blocks actual water, but allows any condensation that may form in the wall space to transpire out of the structure.
You always want the non-permeable barrier at the inside of a wall or floor, with a permeable vapor layer at the outside of the structure. Believe it or not, most condensation comes from inside the house, not outside!
That’s very good to know! Thank you!
I am glad you were able to get your answer. It wasn’t so clear to me either. I know the sanding chore is dusty and seemingly endless, but I also have never seen a really good job done by flooring guys. They often (always?) use lesser skilled workers with those large drum sanders that can instantly sand dips in your new floor. Not that they charge less. I am also planning a re-do of my 30 yr of floor and am planning on using Rubio Monocoat (just like in your bathroom) for ease of application, great color choices and simple repairs. I just have to talk myself into all that work!
I hire a handyman (that I found through a friend/colleague) when I have project that I don’t want to do or can’t do myself, instead of hiring someone that only does that specific work. For instance, I needed to remove about three feet of tile flooring and could not do it without damaging the surrounding tile, but my handyman did a great job. Maybe try a general handyman to do the sanding?